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65. How to reignite your career and see more possibilities, with Tony Martignetti

find career clarity personal development podcast episodes prepare for a job search Jun 25, 2024
Blog/podcast cover with title: 65. How to reignite your career and see more possibilities, with Tony Martignetti


Do you feel stuck, unsure of what career options you have?

Tony from Purpose Partners shares insights on creating impactful interactions that help you open up career possibilities. We discuss his take on the transformative power of uncovering past experiences to propel you forward. Join the conversation on leadership, resilience, and breaking through career barriers. 


We'll talk about:

  • Creating meaningful connections in conversations

  • Uncovering past to propel forward

  • Climbing the right mountain

  • Embracing curiosity and compassion


About Tony: 

Tony Martignetti is a leadership advisor, best-selling author, podcast host, and speaker. He brings together over 30 years of business and leadership experience and extreme curiosity to elevate leaders and equip them with the tools to navigate through change and unlock their true potential. He has been recognized by Thinkers360 as one of the Top Voices in Leadership and by LeadersHum as one of the Biggest Voices in Leadership. Tony hosts The Virtual Campfire podcast and is the author of Climbing the Right Mountain: Navigating the Journey to An Inspired Life and Campfire Lessons for Leaders: How Uncovering Our Past Can Propel Us Forward. He has been featured in many publications, including Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, Life Science Leader, CEOWORLD, and CEO Today.


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65. How to reignite your career and open possibilities, with Tony Martignetti

Tony. Welcome to the uncommon career. How are you doing?

TONY: I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me here.

PATRICIA: Well, I'm glad that you and I had a quick five minute chat before starting to record this and realized there are so many points that we're going to have some great conversation. So start by sharing with all of us a little bit about yourself.

TONY: Yeah, I came to this work that I'm doing now from, you know, working in the industry of, you know, the biotech industry for many years, and realizing that I wasn't doing the work that was meant for it. So I had to make a shift, I had to, you know, take the leap into the unknown and Luckily, I landed in a place that really resonated with me. This is who I was meant to be. And what I do now is I'm a leadership advisor. I do coaching, leadership development for a lot of tech leaders, helping them to create a big impact without burning themselves out in the process. I talk about this idea of being grounded in the way we lead people, but also being connected along that way of finding ways to connect with others so that we can have a better experience in the workplace.

PATRICIA: I love that. You also mentioned something that I was really hopeful I'd get to hear about. And so if you might share, you said, oh, I hope I don't butcher this. You said something on the lines of, I left, was it the boardroom to change the boardroom? Tell me about that.

TONY: Yeah, I'm happy to share that. Yeah. So, you know, the the moment that I literally leapt out of the the world of the corporate world was what I call my flashpoint. It's something I talk about on my podcast, which is called the virtual campfire. It's this flashpoint and moments in our journey that have ignited our gifts into the world. And one of my flashpoints was realizing that, you know, here I am sitting in this world that I thought I belonged in that, you know, the finance person, you know, being analytical. And I'm sitting in this room, a boardroom of a biotech company. looking around the room and seeing everyone pretty much checked out. The CEO and the chief medical officer are arguing about something meaningless. And it really had everything to do with their own image, protecting who's right and who's wrong, and not really caring about how everyone else felt. And I realized in that moment that Leading up to that day, there was a lot of toxicity in this environment. And I had enough. And I decided in that moment, something had to change in me. not just in me, but also in the room. And so I decided to get up and walk out. And so I said, literally, sorry, literally walked out. Yeah, quite literally, I got up and walked out and said, you know, I'm going to leave this room to change the room. And I didn't know what that was going to look like. but I realized that it was going to take a different way of thinking, a different way of approaching my life in my work, but also helping other people to think differently about the way they lead.

PATRICIA: So in that process, how did you decide How did you come up with the idea that this is what it takes to be a good leader? There's so many different theories and philosophies around what makes a good leader. How did you come up with this?

TONY: Yeah, two things happened. Number one, I had a lot of conversations with people. You know, luckily I'm not a shy person. I'm someone who's open to, you know, connecting with other people. And I had these things called curiosity conversations, you know, just talking to people and saying, Hey, tell me, tell me about your experience, you know, with work and you know, what is, what do you like? What do you not like? And then I started reaching out to people I knew. And, you know, the more I heard from them, they said, like, Oh, my gosh, like, if I could leave tomorrow, I would. But, you know, I just, you know, I'm, I had this big package that if I stick around a little longer, I'll get it. you know, and, you know, yeah, I tolerate a lot of the, the, the stuff that I, my boss puts out and it's just, it is what it is, you know, or that's just the way things are. And so hearing that over and over again, really frustrated me. And then the other part of, so that's one part of it is exploring, exploring through conversations. And then the other part of it was just asking myself the questions that I, that I never dared to ask, which was, Who am I? What makes me who I am? And then, you know, really kind of being open to answering some of those hard questions that have haunted us all at some point, which is, you know, what do I want to really connect to as my being? And that time spent in exploration allowed me to really uncover, wow, like I've always been connected to creating environments that foster people's ability to show up as their real selves. And I've also been really connected to this idea of leadership and exploring what makes leaders better. But I never really saw it as a job. I just saw it as a nice interest. But now that shifted and I said, I'm free. I freed myself up to create something that allows that to happen.

PATRICIA: Oh, this is great. And it leads right into some of the questions I was just itchy to ask you. It leads into one of those questions where we had a conversation earlier about finding fulfillment in your career and life, and you just mentioned something that is so common, and that is someone who is getting higher up in their position, right? Maybe their first leadership, second or third leadership position. But as you move upward, it feels like there's only one person who's going to move up and everyone else is going to stay at the same level. And so there is this feeling of being stuck, not being able to see possibilities. And because you can't see them, you can't embody yourself as someone who can go out after them. So tell me about climbing the right mountain.

TONY: Yes, I love that. So just to kind of give a little background climbing the right mountain is the name of my first book. And, you know, even writing a book was kind of, you know, who am I to write a book, but I realized that it was something that I was called to do in the sense that I heard all these great stories from people, not great, they were stories that were keeping them stuck. And they climbed up these corporate ladders and even for myself to give up a lot of the things that I cared about in pursuit of a goal that I realized wasn't even mine. And now here I am, top of my career, outward success, but in reality, not feeling connected or fulfilled and feeling stuck and feeling almost a sense of resentment for that, like, oh my God, how could I have done this to myself? But knowing that in order to get unstuck, I had to take a step back and think, okay, what is going on here? What caused me to do this? And so when you take that step back, it's really exploring all of the things that I've accumulated, the inventory of experiences, the things that have made me who I am. And through that, seeing what I want to use, what I want to keep with me and what I want to throw away. And a lot of that comes from this, the definitions of success that we've applied sometimes don't come from our own definitions. It's societal definitions of success. And so we need to really think, what do I want? What is my definition of success? And how can I expand my own view of what that looks like? And one of the models I'll share super quick, and then I'll shut up, is I work with my clients a lot around this idea of when you feel stuck, expand your vision, narrow your focus. And it's about taking that moment when you feel stuck to say, what else is possible? Where am I not looking that I should be? When I think that this is the only path, there's probably a million other paths I just haven't thought about. And I need to be able to free myself from that myopic view, see a little wider. And then once I find an opportunity or an area I wanna explore deeper, narrow that down and go deeper. See if that's an experiment worth having.

PATRICIA: Oh, I love that word experiment, right? I think the farther in our career we get, and let's be honest, let's take one step back. The older we get or the more seasoned, we'll say the more seasoned we get, right? I'd rather not be called older. Let's not do that to myself and to all of us. The more seasoned we get, the more risk is associated with failure. And this concept of experimentation is, I don't think we use it enough. And I think it's really a key, like you mentioned, it's a key to unlock to so many other possibilities that we don't have in front of us because we're thinking, oh, if I do this, I'm risking failure. And we do that so much that the failure we risk is smaller and smaller and smaller every time until we just don't move anymore. And we're kind of stuck in that rut, right? There was, there's a book. Ooh, I'm going to have to put it in the description. Um, I don't want to butcher it, but I'll put it in the description, but there's a book that I'm reading right now that mentioned something along the lines of everything that you think is, oh, this is just what I do. This is like the minimum. Right. Yeah. Someone else is going to think it's amazing. And that could be your unique value proposition. But nobody really puts it out there because they think if it's easy for me, it's easy for everyone else. And to put it out there as if it's a high value piece, it's risking failure. Right. So I really love your experimentation piece.

TONY: Yeah, I'm just going to throw this out here because I think it's something that you'll appreciate and it's something in the moment that feels real is, you know, the more that we get along in our careers, we have resilience. We've built resilience through all of our experiences that allows us to bounce back from these experiments that don't work out, the failures. And so even though we think, oh, this is super risky, we're not gonna be able to kind of, you know, what would happen if I do this? The reality is we have experience that tells us that we can bounce back from that. Um, we could try an entrepreneurial adventure and if it fails, we can go back and get a job or we can, you know, try to dabble ourselves, dabble in another field and see what happens and then come right back to where we were or be still on track and, and actually learn a lot in that process.

PATRICIA: Oh, that's, this is brilliant because one thing I noticed, can I ask you, do you coach one-on-one?

TONY: Yes, I do.

PATRICIA: Okay, tell me if this is similar. Maybe it's just me. I don't know. But oftentimes, when I enter into an engagement with a client, there seems to be this like, I don't know if it's an assumption or something that we as client and coach need to sort of break. And that's the idea that if you have a coach, you will not fail. If you have a coach, you'll be it's like the magic wand. I'm going to get hired in exactly three, four months, and I'm going to succeed when I tell my boss X, Y, Z, or build my boundaries. Right. What are your thoughts on that?

TONY: Well, that's a good, that's a really interesting point. I think part of it is that, um, you won't fail. What you'll do is you'll learn, uh, at the very least. And I think that's, there's no guarantees in life for sure about, about success. But the great thing about is you, you will definitely change the way you look at things and that will have you constantly trying and exploring, and that will look like success for sure. Um, so I think that's how I look at it. I don't look at it as like. I will get what I want. What you will get is you will get a different way of looking at your mindset. And that mindset shift makes all the difference.

PATRICIA: Oh yeah, that's my, you know, I just talked to someone yesterday and we were talking about conflict as opportunity. And it was one of those pieces where there are times where we'll have that disconnect, right? And I think as coaches and client, there are going to sometimes be conflict if you're kind of pushing a little bit on the boundary or like challenging a little bit or nudging right that kind of thing. And sometimes that's such a great opportunity for us to both look at the situation and say okay there's like a mismatch here and how can we turn this mismatch into something that is like almost, almost like a, let's see what happens. You know, like an experiment, like you said, experiment. Let's just, let's just see what's happened. Let's just see what happens knowing that neither one of us is alone here. We're going to go in this together and you know, we're going to figure it out. Okay. So I don't want to digress too far. That was just a fun little, you know, side, side step in the road. Um, but In climbing the right mountain, you have some key takeaways and one of them really caught my attention. You said that there are eight guideposts to find your mountain. Can you kind of summarize that for us?

TONY: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I realized is this, as we're coming up that mountain, there's a sense of like, how do we, you know, pause along the way and reassess the path. And one of the, there's, you know, I'm not going to go through every guidepost, but what I'll do is I'll give you some of them along the way. First of all, as we have to think about the environment that we're in, the context that we're coming from. If you don't like the environment you're in, you have the license, the agency to change the environment. People think about this idea of like, well, it is what it is. Well, what happens if you shift your perspective in the environment you're in? So environment is a big driver. So that's one guidepost assessing where you are and the environment you're in. The other part of this is to take a different view on how you're looking at yourself. How can you look at the gap versus the gain, your perspective on where you've come from and where you're going. If we're always focusing on what we don't have, then we're always going to come from a place of lack or feeling scarce. But if we come from a place of like, look at how far I've come, look at the gains that I've gained over the past year, and look at that as from a place of appreciation, and realize that because of that, I can accomplish much more. That appreciation is the fuel we need to go to the next, next level, if you will. Yeah, absolutely. Key guidepost.

PATRICIA: Um, so I like how you're looking, looking back to give yourself, um, and, and, you know, we talked about uncovering your past to propel you forward. Right. I really appreciate the fact that everything that we have to move us in the right direction we have in a toolbox. And sometimes we just don't reach low enough in that toolbox to find that piece and to look at it a different way.

TONY: Yeah, yeah. And one of the things that I, you know, in my latest book, and we can talk about that too. But the idea of like, really uncovering your past is being willing to go into the cave that you fear to go into. And that might be those dark moments that, you know, you feel like, oh, gosh, that was painful to explore. But at the end of the day, when you really reconcile with those moments, that maybe you've been through, you know, a divorce or, have navigated disease, cancer or something like that. And they've been part of your journey. But just running away from those things, they can be challenging if they because they'll hide in the background of all the things you do. But if you're willing to face them, and understand them better, what happens is it gives you the fuel to propel you in the direction of where you're going. I'll give you some great examples to think about. Even just in the context of work, if you've ever been laid off, people see that as a challenge to their identity. I've always identified myself as being someone who is never an achiever or someone who people value. And now my value has been stripped for me. And that's hard to reconcile with. But when you look at it as, hey, because of that, I've now been able to open up the door to something more powerful, more amazing. And I've got freedom and to let go of what the past was and lean into a possible future. So there's a lot of that that we need to be able to appreciate. But if we always say, Oh, I'm no good because that event happened to me and I'm never going to let that happen to me. That's that's baggage that comes with us.

PATRICIA: Yeah, it weighs us down. Absolutely. You know, before we started recording, one of the things we talked about was this very kind of I mean, relatively common situation, right? Where as you're moving up in your career and the longer you're in your career, you might find yourself, you know, in management and leadership, maybe even in executive positions. Right. And as you move up, we talked about having this moment where you might feel maybe a little bit stuck thinking, well, I've been doing X, Y, Z, whatever area that's in. Right. I've been doing this for, you know, several years now. Um, I'm moving into leadership positions, but there's only one leadership position per team, right? There's only one leader. And so sometimes it feels like if you don't get that position or if that position is not the right mountain or the right place for you to go, you kind of feel like, well, now there's nothing else available to me because I've, I've cultivated this one route. So talk to me about getting unstuck from that and seeing all the possibilities.

TONY: Yeah, I love that you bring this up because I think this is such a great topic and a lot of people face this problem, especially when teams are smaller and smaller as they, you know, companies are shrinking in terms of their workforces, at least a majority of them are not as big as they used to be. And so I think the key thing is to think, okay, you know, is this happening for me or to me? Is this an opportunity for me to look differently at my work and ask, what do I really want? And what do I really have to offer? And, you know, this is an opportunity to reframe that. And I think one of the things that I think about in this particular aspect of where people are navigating is to think of it in the three Cs. I think my three Cs are connection, curiosity, and compassion. And usually I think of those in two directions. It starts with yourself and then also about outward. So it's inward and outward. So the inward focus of connection, curiosity, and compassion is to say, well, you know, start asking yourself the questions of, okay, you know, let's get curious. You know, I'm frustrated about this. Why am I frustrated? What is it that I really want? You know, in this situation, if I, you know, I'm finding myself wanting that position, but if I don't get it, well, what are my options? What's possible? Am I telling myself there's no other options? Or is it really possible for me to do other things? Can I take my skill sets elsewhere? Even in the company. So there's one option. And then compassion. Hey, it's not that I'm flawed. It's not that I'm a bad person. And it's okay to feel this way that I'm feeling. These are all natural. And then connection is just be okay to connect with yourself and understand these emotions. That's maybe the starting point is to is to reflect on the emotions that you're having. For those who are really stoic, they might sit there and like, just work harder and harder and harder, thinking that working their way out of it is going to solve the problem. That's such a great point. Yeah. We have to go outward and we have to think about like, okay, who, who can I talk to? Who are some people who, you know, see the work I do and know me well and ask them questions, find out more about what are, what are some potential paths based on what I am good at, my qualities, and that gives them options. So I'll stop there.

PATRICIA: No, this is great. I love this conversation. As you're mentioning this, what comes to my mind is that in order to get out of the place we're in, we have to get out of the mental space we're in. We have to get out of that and we cannot get out of that on our own. Sometimes it might involve a coach, but sometimes it involves other people. So here's one way that I think is really helpful for folks and it tends to work really quickly as long as you take that action. And that is to write on a sheet of paper, all the names of people who have promoted you, people who have been supportive of you, people who like when you think about them, you think, oh, they see my value, right? And these can be people throughout your career, whether now or the last position, three years ago, whatever it might be, and start getting on the phone with those people and ask them, What, according to you, what would be my it factor? What would be my like competitive edge? What makes me different in my field? And you would be floored at some of the things they say and how it lights a fire in you, recognizing, like you said, uncovering our past propels us forward. Sometimes our past is within us that we remember, but sometimes it's what other people see in what we've done in our past work.

TONY: It's so brilliant. I just love what you said you shared there, because it's, it has me thinking about all these things that, you know, I've come to see is this, first of all, asking for help is not, you know, something that we should be scared of. Help from other people is what makes us strong. And it makes them also feel appreciated for all the for what they are able to offer and help you. So help is huge. And don't go it alone. Why? Why make it harder than it needs to be? It's already hard. So don't make it harder. So bringing people on the journey with you is so much better. And so asking, don't go it alone. Have other people on the journey with you to help you along, because you can't see everything that you bring to the table. They all do too. And then one last thing I'll add as well is that, that when people believe in you, you rise to the occasion of their expectations. And there's something about that that's really powerful. I've seen that in some of the leaders who I really admire. And what that means in this context is that think back to the people who have believed in you and go back to them and say, hey, what is that you've seen in me that has you you know, really wanting to, to, to keep me on your radar to keep me moving forward. What is it, like you said, the it factor, but it's that believe the believers are the ones you want to reach out to, because they're the ones who are going to give you the things that the truth, but also the things that are going to inspire you to move in the right direction.

PATRICIA: Yes. Oh my gosh. And credit to Tammy Alvarez. I actually, I've heard the It Factor before multiple places, but Tammy Alvarez, she's the author of Escaping the Career Trap, which by the way, launched very, very recently. I'll put the link in the description. But the way she talks about It Factor, both in The Career Trap and in her coaching, is it's really, it gives it power. It's kind of cool how she talks about it. So I'll see if I can find an episode where she talks specifically about that. But yeah, so one of the things that you mentioned, I'm losing my train of thought here because I was so excited about the factor. Oh, is I recently met with this amazing client. I'm so excited for her, right? So I recently met with this client who I had, we're trying to figure out like, what are the possibilities, right? And so one of the pieces that I suggested, I tend to start very simple. Let's write a list of your skills. Right. And right away, it was very, the response was very much like, well, no, I'm trying to think of more creative ways. So I was thinking, and then kind of, they have their own ways. And I thought this is brilliant, right? Because we might have tools in our toolbox, but it's creating space to just be like, let me write something really ugly on the whiteboard. And you'd be surprised how quickly, if you're listening, right? And you're thinking, okay, but I don't really know where to go from here. Have someone, almost anyone, write something or give you a draft, tell you, basically tell you what to do. It doesn't even need to be anything amazing, but you just thinking critically about why that would work, or even better, why it wouldn't work, will give you some ideas to kind of get out of your box. And it sounds like I'm giving you permission to be critical. And really what I'm saying is I'm giving you permission to think outside of the box and conflict is opportunity. So that critique is actually a good thing because it's making us to think of different possibilities. But that's what it reminded me of when you shared that.

TONY: Yeah. I mean, that's quite literally as easy as that sounds or like as simple as it sounds, it's so hard for us to give ourselves permission and space. I think that's what holds a lot of us back in general is the ability to say, okay, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to contemplate life's great mysteries. We don't do that on our own. And this actually has me thinking about this idea I've been thinking about a lot, which is, you know, a lot of people will come into coaching sessions with me and they'll say like, you know, when I come together with you, we, my thinking gets better. And I'm like, interesting. Like we don't think well by ourselves. It gets refined by being in, in, um, in community with others. And it doesn't mean that we are taking ideas from other people. It's just about being in the space with other people allows us to really come to the table with this idea of, Hmm. Yeah. You make me think. And I love that when you have people in front of you that says you make me think.

PATRICIA: This is such great conversation. Like I absolutely love the, as you share something, my brain is like thinking of something that's like similar, which I think is really neat. what you were mentioning right now. Do you know about a concept called Johari's window? Yes. Yes. Okay. That's in my mind, that's what you were describing. Like that's the image that came in my mind. And for those who are listening, Johari's window is like, oh, it's so hard to explain, but it's, it's four quadrants. Right. And think, imagine like a window with four quadrants and there are like an X axis and a Y axis. So one horizontal, one perpendicular, and basically there is a space that you are aware of that you don't share with other people. That's our private life. And then there's a space that you're aware of that you do share with other people. And then there's the most interesting one to me is the pieces of me that people see and tell me about. And then the pieces that people see and choose not to tell me about. Now that space where I, well, let me back up, that space where people see things about me, but choose not to share them. Chances are it's some sort of critique or right. It tends to be our blind spots. Let's just be honest. And then there's pieces of me of my private life that I choose not to share, but I could. And in those spaces, what you're describing really reminds me of us being able to share, create a space where client and coach, right? Assume, let's assume you're the coach and I'm the client, right? Where I give you some information that I wouldn't normally share because you've created a safe space with me. And as the coaching relationship builds, which takes time, it's not going to happen in like session one, right? As the coaching relationship builds out, you share with me things that you notice, Hey, I've noticed a pattern. And then we go at it and kind of experimentally figure out kind of what's going on there. How can we adjust those types of things? And I, You just like blew my mind right now bringing that because I haven't like really looked at Johari's window in that way in a little bit now.

TONY: Yeah. I mean, I love that you bring this up because this is exactly one of the concepts that this really resonates with is this, because I love how we take connection to another. We can't take connection at the surface level. We have to go deeper. We have to allow ourselves to sit in a safe space and explore deeper if we want to have a more meaningful and fulfilling life in general. And one of the ways that I think about this is having a more artful exploration of conversation. And let me explain, because I'm an artist.

PATRICIA: I was just going to ask you, tell us about that, because that sounds really interesting.

TONY: Yeah, so if you think about conversation as, you know, it's a blank canvas. Every conversation has never happened before. It's a new conversation and so we're coming to a conversation with maybe no expectations or no real, you know, sense of where it's going to go and that's great when you have that flow of idea. When two people come together, it's co-created and we have the opportunity to paint a new piece of art together through our conversation, our connection. And when you think of it in that flow, it's not just a transaction. It's about creating something meaningful. An artist does not just put paint on a canvas for the sake of, oh, let me just slap some paint on the canvas and see what happens. They have an intention and they want to create meaning through their art. Just like two conversationalists, you want to have meaning in your conversation. So if we have that intention of coming to a conversation to create meaning, then it takes on a whole different form. And I think that's what we should as a society, as a people, we should try to focus on like, how am I creating meaning through my conversations?

PATRICIA: Oh, that's so good.

TONY: Yeah.

PATRICIA: How do we set that intention? Right. Without, um, without literally saying, Hey, Tony, I'm going to start a conversation with you. What should our intention be?

TONY: Well, it's more like, you know, let's have some fun and let's have, let's start with a, you know, what's real for you, what is important to you these days and what's top of mind, you know, and being willing to have that like ability to dive people deeper into that space. that's where things get really fun and interesting. And I, you know, I do a talk sometimes about the playful nature of conversation is that it doesn't have to be about, you know, going to networking events and feeling like it's about an exchanging of business cards or talking about your titles, but instead about like really getting curious about that person. What is it that, you know, makes them come alive? And what are some things that they really enjoy doing? And if that means that it's about science and, you know, kind of, you know, gene therapy and things like that, that's great. So, you know, sit there and even if you don't know anything about that, be curious. Tell me more about what that is.

PATRICIA: Yeah. Even better if you don't know anything about it, because now you get to appreciate someone's knowledge and depth of, you know, their career skills. We could go on and on and on. This is really great conversation. As we start to wrap up, imagine that this podcast is heard around the world, right? Everyone's listening. And you've got one minute to really share the message that you are putting forward with all the work that you are doing. What do you want to share with us?

TONY: If you want to make an impact in the world, if you want to drive progress in the work that you're doing, it's time to have more meaningful conversations and to create connections with the people around you. And if that's something that you feel like you're missing, maybe it's time to look inside and say, what am I holding back that I shouldn't be?

PATRICIA: Yeah. What's the barrier between me and connecting with other people?

TONY: Exactly.

PATRICIA: That's great. Thank you so much. Okay. I know that we can continue and continue. And I know that people want to hear more from you. So tell us where we can find you. You mentioned books, right? Tell us all the things.

TONY: Awesome. Okay. I'll go quick. Um, first of all, my website is the best place to start. Uh, I purpose And if you go there, I have an assessment you can check out. I have my books there. My podcast, um, is also there. My podcast is available everywhere. It's called the virtual campfire. And, um, you can find me on LinkedIn, um, under my name.

PATRICIA: Right. And I'll include all of those links in the description to make it really easy for y'all to find. Well, Tony, thank you so much. It was a great conversation. It was a great time. Just kind of diving deep into some of these pieces with you.

TONY: Likewise. Thank you so much for inviting me in.

PATRICIA: Yeah, absolutely. And everyone, thanks so much for sticking around. Know that we love you. We're praying for you. We'll see you on the next one.


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